On this “Face the Nation” broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Secretary of State Antony Blinken
- Ukrainian Ambassador to the U.S. Oksana Markrova
- Representative Adam Schiff, Democrat of California
- U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Filippo Grandi
- Kurt Volker, former ambassador to NATO and special representative for Ukraine
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan. And today on Face the Nation: Ukraine’s president makes an urgent plea for help and warns this morning of impending war crimes, as Russia shells the south and the east, targeting populated areas. President Biden’s top diplomat, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, joins us from the region to update on what the U.S. is doing to help.
Meanwhile, with Russian forces just 20 miles outside the capital city of Kyiv, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy pleads for more firepower. We will ask Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.S., Oksana Markarova, what they need and ask House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff what lawmakers can deliver.
Plus, we will hear from the former U.S. Ambassador to NATO Kurt Volker about how the Western alliance is mobilizing to face its greatest threat in decades. And as the fighting drives the biggest refugee exodus in Europe since World War II, we will get the latest from the United Nations refugee commissioner, Filippo Grandi. It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. We have watched with growing horror as Vladimir Putin’s rampage through Ukraine continues. The death toll from both sides is incalculable at this point. The news and pictures from the region are adding a surreal quality, devastating a world still struggling to recover from a two-year global pandemic.
Russia’s economy and, in turn, the Russian people have suffered a series of blows, from crippling sanctions imposed by the U.S. and its allies to the growing list of major corporations pulling out of that country. But Vladimir Putin has refused to back down.
Yesterday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy asked Congress for more aid, including fighter jets. And again today he repeated that plea for a no-fly zone, a request the U.S. and its allies have rebuffed, for fear of direct confrontation with Russia’s military.
We begin in Kyiv with Charlie D’Agata — Charlie.
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Good morning, Margaret. The latest word from the International Red Cross is, that effort to evacuate as many as 200,000 residents from the southern city of Mariupol has failed again for the second day in a row. Both sides blaming each other for breaking a temporary cease-fire with renewed fighting.
(Begin VT)
CHARLIE D’AGATA (voice-over): Residents in the besieged city of Mariupol have withstood some of the heaviest shelling from the Russian military since this invasion began.
(HEALTH CARE WORKER SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Doctors Without Borders describes the humanitarian crisis as catastrophic and that civilians are in desperate need. The city’s hospital is overwhelmed.
A man rushes in, clutching his 18- month-old son wounded in shelling. Doctors try frantically to revive the little boy, but they’re unable to save him.
(WOMAN CRYING)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: His mother breaks down in tears. Elsewhere, the brutal onslaught has only intensified, destroying everything in its path. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy today warned that Russia is now planning to bombard the port city of Odessa, while renewing the plea for a no-fly zone.
(PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Countered by President Putin’s warning to the West that any country declaring a no-fly zone would be seen as an enemy combatant.
(MAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: With Moscow now banning all media coverage of the war in Ukraine, Visa and Mastercard have now joined the growing number of international companies suspending operations in that country. Even as Russian troops close in on major cities, Ukrainian forces continue to put up a fierce resistance, claiming to have downed a Russian fighter jet, and the Defense Ministry distributing video of a Russian attack helicopter shot out of the sky. Even in occupied cities like Kherson, anti-Russian protests and demonstrations are already under way.
(GUNSHOTS)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Residents confronting armed Russian soldiers, and yet, the more determined the resistance, the more devastating the Russian military’s response.
(End VT)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: This morning, Pope Francis rejected Russia’s assertion that this is a military operation, saying it is a war, which is leading to rivers of blood and tears. Here, a Ukrainian delegate says a third round of peace talks with Russian counterparts are due to take place tomorrow — Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Charlie D’Agata in Kyiv, stay safe. CBS News national security correspondent David Martin has been closely tracking the Russian military’s march toward Kyiv. And he joins us now. David, the U.S. had been projecting Kyiv would fall within days. Is that still what they expect?
DAVID MARTIN: No. The Russian attempt to quickly take down the Ukrainian government has clearly failed. The Russians stalled. But we got to remember, they’re stalled, but this is not a spent force. We have seen the satellite photos of that convoy stuck on the road northwest of Kyiv. There’s another convoy east of Kyiv, which is a tank column, almost a division’s worth of tanks. They ended up there when they ran out of gas, literally ran out of gas. But they have been refueled now. And you can just see that it seems to be a matter of time before this push from the northwest and this push from the east come together in an encirclement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And what happens when Kyiv becomes encircled? Because the United States has set some pretty clear lines of what they won’t do. If Ukraine gets these fighter jets they want, will that make a difference?
DAVID MARTIN: Sure, it’ll make a difference, but will it be decisive? I don’t think so. The Poles who are the country that is willing to transfer these MiG-29s, on paper, they have 27 MiG-29s. We don’t know if all 27 are combat-ready. But, more importantly, we don’t know how many pilots Ukraine has left. Because, in air combat, it’s the shortage of skilled pilots that usually gets to you before the loss of aircraft.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. has been pouring — my sources say, just pouring Stinger missiles, anti-aircraft and anti-tank weaponry in. Is that what Ukraine is completely dependent on right now?
DAVID MARTIN: Well, they have their own forces that they began the war with. But they had finite stocks of ammunition. I mean, Russia essentially has infinite stocks of ammunition, because they can bring stuff from the interior. And all of those Javelins and Stinger anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, they’re coming in by land. But, if Russia succeeds in encircling Kyiv, how are the supplies going to get through?
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have not been told yet — from every U.S. official I have asked, I have not heard the clear answer to the question of when all of these sanctions will actually affect their military and what’s happening on the ground. When will we see an impact?
DAVID MARTIN: I don’t think we should count on sanctions to have an impact on the fighting in Ukraine. What we should count on is that the Russians have proven themselves to be not very good at maneuver warfare. The art of maneuver warfare is to bring all your forces, land, air, all together at a point of attack. And they just seem incapable of doing that. The aircraft are flying over here, and the land troops are trying to advance over here. So they’re attacking in piecemeal. And the Ukrainians, because they know the terrain better and because they’re fighting for their country, are able to stop them. If they get their act together, the laws of physics are going to apply here, and they’re just going to be able to grind up the Ukrainian resistance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: David, thank you very much for your insight and for your reporting. We go now to Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who’s in Moldova this morning. Mr. Secretary, good morning to you.
ANTONY BLINKEN (U.S. Secretary of State): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Vladimir Putin has said that sanctions amount to a declaration of war. They are impacting his economy, but they’re not stopping his military. When will sanctions stop the fight?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: Margaret, the impact of the sanctions is already devastating, which is presumably why he said what he said. But at the same time, we continue to see President Putin doubling down and digging in on this aggression against Ukraine. That’s continuing. And I think we have to be prepared, unfortunately, tragically for this to go on for some time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: NATO has said none of its 30 members are willing to set up a no-fly zone. President Biden has been very clear he has no interest in that or combat troops. But what more can the United States do here? If, for instance, the Polish government, a NATO member wants to send fighter jets, does that get a green light from the U.S., or are you afraid that that will escalate tension?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: No, that — that gets a green light. In fact, we’re talking with our Polish friends right now about what we might be able to do to backfill their needs, if, in fact, they choose to provide these fighter jets to the Ukrainians. What can we do? How can we help to make sure that they get something to backfill the planes that they’re handing over to the Ukrainians? We’re in very active discussions with them about that. Look, I have been in Europe for the last couple of days working closely, as always, with our allies and partners at NATO, the European Union, the G7 countries, and all of us together are continuing to take steps to increase the pressure on Russia through additional sanctions, all of which are very actively under discussion and will be implemented in the coming days, as well as taking further steps to give the Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves against the Russian aggression.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you convince Vladimir Putin that this isn’t ultimately about regime change? How do you get him to back down?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: For us, it’s not about regime change. That’s — the Russian people have to decide who they want to lead them. And, look, as I said, the challenge is this. Vladimir Putin continues to press this aggression. That’s why I say I’m afraid this could go on for some time. But it’s going to end, and it’s going to end with Ukraine prevailing, because, even as Putin has the capacity, because he can — the manpower, the equipment that he has that he can bring to bear can continue to grind down these incredibly brave and resilient Ukrainians, winning a battle is not the same thing as winning a war. Taking the city is not the same thing as capturing the hearts and minds of Ukrainians. What they’ve demonstrated with extraordinary courage is that they will not be subjugated to Vladimir Putin’s will to — and be under Russia’s thumb. So, whether that takes another week, another month, another year to play out, it will. And I know how this is going to end. But the question is, can we end it sooner rather than later, with less suffering than to — going forward?
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Zelenskyy has repeatedly said that these may be his final days. If Russia kills him, what will be the consequence? And are you working on a contingency plan to support a Ukrainian government without him at the helm?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: The leadership that President Zelenskyy has shown, the entire government has shown is remarkable. They’ve been the embodiment of this incredibly brave Ukrainian people. I was just a day ago in Ukraine, at least about 15 feet into Ukraine, with my friend and colleague, the Ukrainian foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba. The Ukrainians have plans in place that I’m not going to talk about or get into any details on to make sure that there is what we would call continuity of government one way or another. And let me leave it at that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I also want to ask you about another massive diplomatic undertaking, and this is the attempt to negotiate a deal to put a cap on Iran’s nuclear program. Yesterday, Russia’s top diplomat, Sergei Lavrov, said you personally, he wants you to personally give him a written guarantee of exemptions from sanctions in order to keep cooperation on the nuclear deal. Are you giving him that? Is the entire Iran deal at risk?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: The sanctions that are being put in place and that have been put in place on Russia have nothing to do with the Iran nuclear deal and the prospects of getting back into that agreement. These things are totally different and are just are not in any way linked together. So I think that’s — that’s irrelevant. It’s also in Russia’s interests, irrespective of anything else, for Iran not to be able to have a nuclear weapon or at have the capacity to produce a weapon on very, very short order. That interest remains, again, irrespective of where we are in our relationship with Russia as a result of its aggression in Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What are the prospects for that deal, and also two other aspects here, the American hostages that are being held by Iran right now? And do you see the prospect for Iran agreeing to stop threatening people on U.S. soil, like they did a journalist living in New York, like they have threatened your predecessor, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: We’ve made real progress in recent weeks on getting back to reimplementation of the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal. And I think we’re close. But there are a couple of very challenging remaining issues. And nothing’s done until everything’s done. And so, unless we’re able to resolve a couple of outstanding issues, then we don’t get — we don’t get back to the deal. But we’re working on it right now. It is really coming down to whether we can resolve a couple of outstanding issues. If we can, we’ll get back on the deal. If we can’t, we won’t.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On those specific issues of stopping — stopping threats against those on U.S. soil and on releasing hostages, are those two demands?
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: We’re going to continue to do everything we possibly can to get detained Americans, arbitrarily detained Americans, home, whether it’s Iran or anywhere else. And that’s something we’re working, again, every single day. When it comes to threats that Iran is making, when it comes to actions that it’s taken outside of the nuclear area, including activities in the region in the Middle East that are threatening to us, threatening allies and partners, again, irrespective of whether we get back into the deal or not, we will stand and act against those every single day. We were very clear when we were in the deal originally that nothing about the deal prevents us from taking action against Iran when it’s engaged in actions that threaten us, threaten our allies and partners. That will very much continue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, thank you for your time.
SECRETARY ANTONY BLINKEN: Thanks, Margaret. Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Ukraine’s Ambassador to the United States, Oksana Markarova. Welcome back to Face the Nation, Ambassador.
UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR OKSANA MARKAROVA: Thank you, thank you very much for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your president issued two pleas for help this morning. He said if the west does not provide Ukraine with at least planes, there is only one conclusion to make: you also want us to be killed very slowly. This morning Secretary Blinken said there is a green light for Poland to give you those fighter jets. Do you know if you will get them, and what difference will it make?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: Well, as we see during eleven past days, I think Ukrainians have shown to all the world that we’re not going to stop and we’re not going to surrender. And we will defend our homes. And like in 2014, when Russians attacked us the first time and there was this brutal destruction of Donetsk Airport, where Ukrainian cyborgs, people that- our military guys, defended the airport until the very end, until it collapsed. And there is a saying we have that, you know, they- the cyborgs withstood the concrete didn’t. We don’t want that to happen again, so we will fight. Our brave men and women of the armed forces and all of the civilians who are stopping the enemy without weapons, even, will fight, and we need all of the support in order to sustain this fight–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Do
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: So–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –you know when those planes will come?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: We’re hoping as soon as possible. And we are working with our American, especially, friends and allies on the steady supply of all of the ammunition and anti-air anti-tank and planes to be able to effectively defend our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It terrified the world, frankly, this week, when they saw that Russia fired on a nuclear power plant in Ukraine. And their- your president told Congress yesterday forces from Russia seized two nuclear power plants in Ukraine. They’re advancing toward a third. Are you on your own to defend these? Is any help coming from anywhere in Europe to secure the nuclear plants?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: Well, I think it should come because the first station that they seized was Chernobyl station, which is very risky, but it is not operational, so there is a lot of waste there and everything else. And since they- they- won- won of the war the personnel that is there is held hostage. There are no change of shifts, so it is very dangerous. The second one’s operation is the largest one in Europe. So actually, that put the world on the brink of the nuclear disaster. And even though, again, our firefighters were able to put down the fire, nobody is safe. Ukraine is not safe. Europe is not safe. Because these stations are not supposed to be run by war criminals. They are supposed to be run by- run by responsible engineers. So- this is something that we are raising as an issue because Ukraine has many power plants, and all of them could be under attack because, again, we’re all are shocked not only about that all this indiscriminatory shelling of civilians, shooting people, bombing schools and now nuclear plants. What’s next?
MARGARET BRENNAN: So- but what is the solution there? Asking to- you know- U.N. Officials to come in and help secure-? What is the option available to Ukraine to secure these plants now?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: This is the question to the world. You know, we are ready for any option. We’re talking about the closed no- skies. We’re talking about any type of security operations. We are talking to anyone. So, whatever, whoever, whether it’s the U.N. or any other, or individual countries, I mean we should act together. We are defending it. We’re doing everything possible. We are being responsible, even though we’re defending our home, our armed forces are very careful not to shoot at the power plants, not to do any damage that could impact not only Ukraine but us. We cannot say that about the Russian criminals, who are doing everything specifically to destroy Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And Russia, of course, denies any of this is deliberate, and denies the reports from your government that they’re raping women, that there is a deliberate targeting of nuclear power plants and infrastructure. They deny bombing the holocaust memorial deliberately. Do you think that the international community is doing what it is supposed to do? Or do you feel like the international system is failing Ukraine?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: Well, look, first it is appalling that Russia is denying it and that they- that they are lying because we see it online, and I would like to thank all of the brave men and women, journalists, who are now in Kyiv and all the other places showing what’s actually happening in Ukraine. It happens. They did it. They did it deliberately. We see it on videos, photos and you know we all talk to people back home. So, Russians are escalating, and they are quick, and we’ve very helpful- we’re very thankful to all our partners, and especially to the United States, to everyone, to President Biden, for everything they’re doing to support us. But it is clear after eleven days that we also need all of us to move faster because Russians are escalating.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You attended the State of the Union last week as a guest of the First Lady. The president addressed this country talking about Ukraine. That’s very different for the American people to hear. How do you explain to the American people why this $10 billion in aid that President Biden is asking for? Why should U.S. taxpayers be concerned and invested in your country?
AMBASSADOR MARKAROVA: Well, Ukraine didn’t do anything to be attacked. If we didn’t provoke Russia, we didn’t do anything. We were not a threat to Russia unless being a peaceful democracy and just peacefully leaving in your own country is a threat. And if it’s so, then it’s not only about Ukraine, then Europe and the whole world is not safe. I mean, we see President Putin threatening everyone with all the forces, including the nuclear force. We have to stop him because again, it’s not just some conflict, it’s not just some regional problem. It’s a full-fledged war that a nuclear large power that actually signed and assurances, together with the United States and Great Britain when we denuclearize Ukraine voluntarily in 1994 – signed gave us assurances not to attack us. So, we are first, and we need to stop Putin and this criminal war in Ukraine, rather than waiting until we all together will have to fight it everywhere.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Madam Ambassador, thank you again for joining us and we’ll be right back with a lot more face the nation, so stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you can’t watch the full Face the Nation, you can set your DVR, or we’re available on demand. Plus, you can watch us through our CBS or Paramount+ app. And we’re replayed on our CBS News Streaming Network at noon Eastern.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will be right back with the chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff. And we will have more on the growing humanitarian crisis in Europe with the chief of the U.N. Refugee Agency, Filippo Grandi, plus the former U.S. envoy to Ukraine, Kurt Volker. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. We now want to go to House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff. He’s a Democrat from California and joins us from the Los Angeles area. Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to start on Ukraine. The United States purchases about 600,000 barrels of Russian petroleum products a day. Speaker Pelosi said that oil should be banned. The White House says it’s looking at options. What is that option? Does a solution come from Congress or is this something President Biden needs to act on?
REP. SCHIFF: I think it could come from either place. I think there’s very strong bipartisan support to cut off Russian oil and gas sales to the United States. It’s anathema, I think, to many of us in Congress that while we were sanctioning them and trying to cripple their economy that way would help them in any way by purchasing their petroleum. But I think the administration wants to make sure that we work with our allies. This will have an impact to- potentially on global oil prices, including here at home, where in Los Angeles now gas is over $5 a gallon. So he wants to make sure that we understand the impact on the global supply. But I think there is strong support to show solidarity with Ukraine, but also to make sure that American dollars aren’t supporting the Russian war machine in any way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How quickly does that need to happen? I mean, this is Putin’s lifeline. It’s a cash cow.
REP. SCHIFF: Well, I think we like to act on it very quickly. At the same time, you know, we have to be circumspect about the fact that Russia will probably find somewhere else to sell that oil and gas to. So the impact ultimately on Russia may not be as powerful as we would like. It’s why we have to continue to explore additional ways to really crush the Russian economy. But I have to say I’m enormously impressed with how the world has come together with how here in Congress, in a very partisan Congress, Democrats and Republicans are uniting around this tough sanction package, as well as providing more defensive military support to Ukraine. There is enormous solidarity with the brave people of Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is solidarity, but it seems that Vladimir Putin is willing to suffer the consequences of those sanctions. And the Russian people are, the military is not stopping its advance, at least that we can see. what will happen if, as President Zelensky is predicting he loses his life in this Russian attack, what will the United States do then?
REP. SCHIFF: Well, he has, I think, been an incredibly courageous wartime leader. This was, I believe, another miscalculation by Putin, who believes Zelensky was weak, would not be able to lead a country to war. But in fact, he has proved to be enormously strong and not only rallied Ukrainians, but I think rallied people around the world. I don’t want to contemplate what might happen in his absence, although I do think the Ukrainian people will fight on and we will continue to support them. But obviously, we’re doing everything we can, supplying, I think, real time intelligence to help protect him, as well as to give Ukrainians the information they need to defend themselves.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. and global powers, as we spoke to Secretary Blinken about, are potentially on the cusp of a new diplomatic deal with Iran, a renewed version of this nuclear program should the Biden administration present that to Congress for review? Do you want to take a look at it?
REP. SCHIFF: Well, I’m certainly going to want to look at it and study it and assess the merits of it. I think it will come down ultimately to whether it is a, essentially re-entering the deal that the Trump administration pulled America out of or it is substantially different- new and different deal. If it’s the latter then I think it will require a vote in the Congress. If- if it’s the former, then the administration may be able to do that on its own. Ultimately, I think the decision to pull out was disastrous. Iran has moved forward both in terms of its enrichment, but also in terms of its expertise. And ultimately, we’re going to have to weigh the impact of that on any new agreement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are the chair of intelligence, you know, well, Iran’s espionage activities and the operations they’ve tried to carry out on US soil, including this attempt to kidnap a New York based journalist. There are also threats against former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other Trump officials. Should this new deal with Iran include a promise to stop carrying out those kind of operations on U.S. soil?
REP. SCHIFF: Well, I would love a nuclear deal to include prohibitions on Iran’s malign activities, a cessation of its missile and drone program. But the question is not what I would like, but rather whether a deal that is confined to curbing Iran’s ability to get a bomb is a good deal. And I think if we can take off the table, any pathway to a bomb for year- for Iran, that in itself is worthwhile. These other malign activities of Iran’s, their plots against the U.S. personnel or Americans around the world we can deal with and have to deal with separately, and we should deal with them aggressively. But I wouldn’t say that we should neglect to stop their nuclear program because of these other activities. We need to go after all of this, not necessarily in one agreement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go, I want to ask about the January six committee. There was a development this week, a court filing claiming there is now evidence that President Trump broke the law in his efforts to overturn the election in 2020. Do you think that the attorney general is moving fast enough with his enforcement?
REP. SCHIFF: What we made clear in our filing to the court is we believe there’s a good faith basis to conclude that the former president and his campaign may have violated any number of federal laws, including obstructing an official proceeding, the joint session, and defrauding the American people. And I do think that the Justice Department ought to be looking at these issues and ought to be investigating in particular just to give one very graphic example the former president on the phone with the secretary of state in Georgia demanding that he find 11,780 votes that didn’t exist, but the precise number he would need to overtake President Biden. I think if anyone else had engaged in that conversation, they would be under investigation and it should be no different for the former president. So I think the department is diligently pursuing those who attack the Capitol that day. But there were multiple lines of effort to overturn the election that may have violated the law, which also should be investigated.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. Chairmanship, thank you for your time this morning. We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the refugee crisis. Christina Ruffini reports from Poland.
(BEGIN VT)
CHRISTINA RUFFINI: As Ukrainian men stay behind to defend their country, Ukrainian women are fighting their own battles, navigating danger, rubble, and chaos.
WOMAN (through translator): It was scary. We got scared. Before that, we did not think we would leave.
CHRISTiNA RUFFINI: Panicked crowds and freezing temperatures, hauling children, luggage, even the family dog. Thousands of refugees have fled into surrounding countries. More than 100,000 to slow Slovakia. Almost 170,000 to Hungary. And more than 800,000 to Poland.
WOMAN: I want to stop war and get back my normal life. I want to live in peace.
CHRISTINA RUFFINI: Twenty-nine-year-old Christinia (ph) came to this border crossing with a mission, to pick up and deliver this car to the front, paid for with donations and filled with supplies.
MAN: We have night vision. It’s really hard to get now.
CHRISTINA RUFFINI: Since military-aged men can’t leave Ukraine, women are acting as couriers.
MAN: This whole country are fighting against an enemy united, like helping each other. WOMAN: The only thing that have this day (ph) is to work and to believe.
CHRISTINA RUFFINI: Believe that this will end, that they can win, and that their country and its people will be made whole.
(END VT)
CHRISTIANA RUFFINI: Now, Secretary of State Antony Blinken was here yesterday, where he met with refugees and told them they are not alone. And in a show of support, President Biden has asked Congress for $4.2 billion in aid for Ukraine. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Christina Ruffini in Poland, thank you. We want to go now to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Filippo Grandi. He’s at a refugee shelter at the Ukrainian-Polish border. Good afternoon to you, High Commissioner. You have said this is the fastest moving refugee exodus since World War II. What are the numbers now? What are you seeing?
UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES FILIPPO GRANDI: As of today, we’ve passed the terrible mark of 1.5 million refugees, and this in 10 days, essentially from Ukraine into five neighboring countries. The bulk here in Poland, where I am now. And if I think of past decades, I cannot think in Europe of a faster exodus of people. Not since the end of the Second World War, I would say.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What are you seeing in terms of the state that people are showing up at these shelters in. What do they need?
COMMISSIONER GRANDI: Men of military age, which is from 18 to 60, cannot leave the country. They are in conscription and they have to stay there to defend their country. So it’s mostly women, children, elderly, many disabled people and they are above all, frightened, traumatized. These are people that until just a few days ago, had a perfectly normal life. And in- in a matter of hours, everything is thrown apart. And they have to be on the road. Very difficult journeys, very traumatizing journeys through war torn Ukraine, up to the border and now here where they’re safe. But of course, they’re separated from families. Uncertain about their future. So I would say that- that the trauma and anguish is the most defining feature of the moment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can civilians safely get out of the country? How many people would be refugees but are instead displaced and at risk right now?
COMMISSIONER GRANDI: These statistics are impossible to- to- to define precisely because we don’t have access. We are, you know, UN agencies and Red Cross are inside the country, but they can not move everywhere. This is why the UN and the Red Cross are trying to negotiate safe passage to the most affected places. But up to now, we have not succeeded in getting the necessary guarantees and respect for the ceasefire. That’s the only way that we can send convoys in, bring supplies and, if necessary, bring people out. But people are moving also from other places that are even less impacted. Sometimes they move before it happens because they know it might happen to their location. So this is a- an extremely messy situation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who is firing on those safe passages?
COMMISSIONER GRANDI: Well, there is bombardment by the Russian forces, and this is what people are mostly afraid of. Yesterday I was in Moldova and other neighboring countries. People were coming from the city of Odessa, where there is no bombing- bombardment yet. But sirens have sounded over the day and people are so afraid that they just leave their homes, especially people with children. They want to bring them to safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, High Commissioner, you’ve been dealing with these record refugee numbers all around the world even before this happened in Europe. What happens now that you have this massive influx? What does the UN need? I mean, what kind of resources do you need?
COMMISSIONER GRANDI: Well, let me state the obvious. First, we need this to stop. We need this to stop because without the war stopping, people will just continue to pour out of the country. One and a half million is difficult enough to manage, even for relatively stable and prosperous countries in Europe. Imagine, however, if we go further up and we will, we will no doubt if it doesn’t stop. Now for- for the people that are on the movement. First of all, we need to get more supplies inside Ukraine. And for that, we need at least some areas of tranquility where we can deliver help and then here for the mass of refugees. A lot is needed, you know, any kind of relief supplies. We need cash to help people. We need logistical support. European countries have means and organization. But if this number of people grows, we will need more international support. And at some point, if people stay here for a long period of time, there will have to be other countries offering places to host refugees, even outside Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Tell me about that because there was massive political backlash in 2015 when Syrian refugees poured into Europe. There are charges of racism of discrimination. Poland, just in the past year, has tried to build a wall to keep refugees out coming from the Middle East, from Africa. What is different now and what is happening to those refugees?
COMMISSIONER GRANDI: I think there is, of course, at the moment, a colossal emergency. There is a certain- there are certain geopolitical factors at play, but I- I- I look at the future. And you’re right, we’ve been struggling with convincing Europe to take- to open the doors for more people, not to push back people. But I think that this crisis, and I’ve said it before, carries an important message that anybody can become a refugee. Very suddenly. And that any country can become a frontline refugee receiving country needing the support of others. We want- Europe is learning fast to work together in so many ways in response to this crisis. I hope that this working together will apply to all people seeking refuge in Europe, not only now which is happening, but in the future as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you very much, Mr. High Commissioner, for your time today and good luck to you. We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Kurt Volker. He was a former US envoy to Ukraine and former US ambassador to NATO, and he joins us now. Thank you for coming on the program. You’ve been arguing for a no-fly zone over Ukraine. NATO says that’s off the table. The United States, no way, no how, no combat troops because President Biden says this would trigger World War III. Why is he wrong?
FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO KURT VOLKER: Well, I think there are ways to do this that mitigate those risks, if not- doesn’t eliminate the risk, but mitigates the risk of direct conflict with Russia. First off, I think we have to recognize that the civilian casualties and the horrific scenes that we just saw are going to get worse. They’re not going to get better. There’s going to be massive airstrikes against Kyiv, against other cities, and it’s going to be absolutely devastating. So if we can prevent that from a humanitarian point of view, I think we- we need to try. And the way to do this that I would recommend is we make clear the humanitarian purposes. We limit the scope geographically to Kyiv and western Ukraine, so we’re not getting close to Russian borders. We make clear that we will only fire if fired upon on any ground targets. We are not there to strike anything. We make clear to the Russian military that we will not strike their aircraft or their helicopters as long as they stay outside the zone. And then there are rules of engagement that our Air Force and others are very good at, of escorting people out of a zone without fire if they’re not fired upon. And I think we apply all of those things in order to try to create a safe space for the civilians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So other former ambassadors to NATO have made the public argument that this is unrealistic because you would have to take out Russian systems not only in Ukraine, but long range ones inside Russia. You go to war like this.
AMB. VOLKER: You don’t do that because that does bring us directly into the fight. Russia does not want us in the fight, and I think we are letting Putin get inside our heads and deter us from doing things to protect civilians, rather than taking into account that he does not want the US or other countries supporting Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So if the goal ultimately, diplomatically, is to stop the carnage and stop the war, how do you get Vladimir Putin to back down? Who can actually do that? Because the Germans tried, the French tried, the Israelis tried. No one’s gotten any success. The US is talking to China. Who can do this?
AMB. VOLKER: The Ukrainian people can do this. The Ukrainian people are there. They are determined. They are fighting. We are fortunate that we don’t have to be in a position of fighting Putin or trying to stop him. The Ukrainian people are ready to do this, and that’s why it’s critical that we give them every bit of support and assistance we can.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you say it will get worse, I mean, the French president has indicated that’s basically what Vladimir Putin told him. Tell me what you- what is the scenario the public needs to prepare for. Because NATO’s already saying cluster bombs are being used. You hear incredible accusations from the Ukrainian government about what is happening. The United States intelligence says lists of people to send to camps are being drawn up. Is this a scenario where you can see someone sitting down and negotiating a way out?
AMB. VOLKER: Not at all, no. We have to understand that Putin is bent on a military victory. He wants to destroy Ukraine, decapitate the leadership. He doesn’t care about how many casualties this causes, what happens to the civilian population. This is a messianic mission that he is on. This is why he has to be stopped. And again, we can do things to assist the Ukrainians. Very happy to hear Secretary Blinken say that we are now greenlighting the aircraft from Poland to Ukraine. We should be providing some of our own A-10 aircraft that we’re ready to put into storage. There are trained Ukrainian pilots who use them. We should be looking at more means to get more support in quickly. What the UN High Commissioner just said was they need tranquil areas inside Ukraine. In western Ukraine, there are areas where there is no Russian fighting now. We could try to help create those tranquil areas for delivery of assistance. So much more we could be doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is there the political will for that? You served in the Trump administration. Former Vice President Pence said Friday, “there is no room in the Republican Party for apologists for Putin.” It’s kind of extraordinary he had to say that.
AMB. VOLKER: Yeah, yeah. We’ve heard that in our- in our media. We’ve heard that from some politicians here. But I think- you heard also from Adam Schiff. There is incredible bipartisan unity in the Congress, Senate and the House, and among experts and national security figures here in the country. Everyone sees what Putin is doing. There is- there is no support for this whatsoever. Full support for Ukraine. The only question is how far we go to help Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Was the former president an apologist for Putin? That’s what the vice president was saying.
AMB. VOLKER: Well I’m not going to pass a judgment on that. We heard what he said. You know, he said that Putin was acting in a smart, savvy way. I mean, that’s not the messaging that you want to send. Messaging you want to send is that he is acting in an irresponsible, inhuman way, killing people in an unjustified war, and we should be on the side of the Ukrainians to help them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you, ambassador, for joining us today. We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: There was some good news this week, progress at home battling Covid. There are some hints that life might be returning to something resembling normal. CBS News senior national correspondent Mark Strassmann reports.
(BEGIN VT)
WOMAN: Happy Mardi Gras!
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): When the only mask in sight is a Mardi Gras costume, you know something’s changed.
WOMAN: It’s like your soul reentering your body. It feels good to be back.
MARK STRASSMANN: Starting tomorrow in New York —
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK: We are winning. So, let’s celebrate the win.
MARK STRASSMANN (on camera): One of America’s first cities to impose a mask mandate in public spaces will lift it. Starting Monday, New Jersey ends mandatory masking in schools. California, Oregon, and Washington state will do the same next week.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths all down dramatically. Under the CDC’s new metric, more than 90 percent of Americans live in counties with low or medium Covid risk. And a big reason is vaccinations. Three-fourths of adults now have theirs. Another booster, with Covid cases down, the labor market’s up. Nearly 700,000 jobs added last month. Ninety percent of jobs lost during the pandemic have returned.
But Covid always comes with a caveat. Health officials warn the pandemic is hardly over, and children under five are especially vulnerable. But, overall, in unmasked America, we’re breathing easier.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our Mark Strassmann with some news on Covid for a change. That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching.
Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
